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des
Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 04:11 am:   

I've just made this announcement elsewhere:

In recent weeks and months, I've grown conscious that the way I conduct myself here and elsewhere on the internet is counterproductive to my ideas, to my works and to my products. I now therefore intend to shut up.
(Sighs of relief all round!)
des :-)
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John Thiel
Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 07:21 am:   

Whew, des, you've stayed long, talked much. Stay on, and keep talking!
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AT
Posted on Sunday, April 09, 2006 - 04:54 pm:   

Des,
You haven't been self-promoting as much as trying to have some dialogue with others on issues that are important. Some people may not think it's worthwhile, while others do, but don't say anything. It's easy to write about stuff that is meaningless, or to write something snide. So you don't have to assume that the chatty easy-roaders are the wayfarers you choose to walk with. There are many silent thoughtful walkers who share your concerns.
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Carole
Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 03:04 am:   

Yeah, I agree with Anna - your comments are always interesting! (just at the moment most interesting comments are being drowned in spam).
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des
Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 05:38 am:   

Thanks John, AT & Carole. Much appreciated.
Clarification possibly here:
http://www.weirdmonger.blogspot.com/
I intend to continue to read the Night Shade boards and to make any significant announcements (sparingly) on the Nemonymous or DF Lewis threads.
Thanks to Night Shades for giving me these threads which have been going for a while now. In fact the very first message on these Boards in 2003 was to a DF Lewis thread!

Meanwhile, the question on this thread -- can too much (or a certain kind of) internet interaction by an author, publisher, artist etc. inevitably be seen as self-promotion and counter-productive?
des
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John Thiel
Posted on Monday, April 10, 2006 - 06:56 am:   

It takes a lot of selves to get anything out of a setup.
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Dflewis
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 03:02 am:   

Not sure what that means, John?
des
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John William Thiel
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 07:19 am:   

I thought you were seeing yourself as an author/publisher/artist...if you're all three, it takes a lot of promotion to come across the way you might want. But I'm not sure why you think a lot of that would be counter-productive.
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Dflewis
Posted on Sunday, April 16, 2006 - 12:17 pm:   

Well, John, it is true that I have long been intrigued by the concept of separate and/or overlapping 'selves' (eg Proust's or Pessoa's treatment of them in their fiction etc.) - and you spark an interesting observation in bringing a concept of 'selves' into the same territory as 'self-promotion' (particularly as exercised on the internet). des
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Dflewis
Posted on Monday, April 17, 2006 - 12:38 am:   

A thought-provoking article in yesterday's Independent newspaper:
http://comment.independent.co.uk/commentators/article357931.ece
It is about 'happiness' and I think relates to this thread.
des
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Lancer Kind
Posted on Tuesday, April 18, 2006 - 01:18 am:   

Absolutely it can be counter productive.

I was at a Norwescon panel last year where an author thought it was cute to work in "and you can read about that in my book" about every third sentence. (I am not kidding.)

People pay money to go to cons to meet authors and discuss things at panels. They don't go to watch some ass innundate the audience with advertisments rather than content.

I will not buy that fellow's book.

==>Lancer---
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ColettePhair
Posted on Friday, April 28, 2006 - 06:48 pm:   

des,
So how do you think the article relates to promotion, yourself? It seems hard to promote without an ego.
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Dflewis
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 04:10 am:   

The article is about the search for happiness, Colette. Life is the search for something that you think will make you happy but makes you unhappy. Self-promotion on the internet is in the latter category, I feel, from personal experience.
des
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ColettePhair
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 10:51 am:   

Because it comes to nothing?
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Dflewis
Posted on Saturday, April 29, 2006 - 11:08 am:   

Yes.
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ColettePhair
Posted on Monday, May 01, 2006 - 03:49 pm:   

So because I'm interested in how I can promote myself as an author, I'm curious - what sorts of things did you try on the internet that didn't work?

Is it just that in-person promotion is preferable, ie. - Do you think promotion online is better than nothing?
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Dflewis
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 01:06 am:   

Collette, I think most internet communication comes out 'wrong'. I tried (but more for enjoyment than promotion) and still trying blogs, experimental discussions, websites, spraying my previously published fiction in various places on the Net etc.
I am often misunderstood. Or mostly ignored.
Re the last bit - I don't *know* it is ignored. It just *feels* ignored, despite some very kind people who have given me feedback. I suspect everyone feels ignored or more ignored than they think they deserve. I am no exception. I agree that nobody *owes* me feedback.

I don't know if I feel more sensitive than I should. Experience doesn't always help, not even the experience of nearly sixty years!
des
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Dflewis
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 01:10 am:   

Sorry, Colette.
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Dflewis
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 09:52 am:   

Further thoughts: I have it on good authority - certainly in UK - that schoolkids spend *all* their spare time socialising electronically; their whole conversation being about who said what to whom about what or about whom; they don't talk about films, books, TV programmes etc.; they just talk about their own inspiralling of electronic communion with each other?

Are we the same, we on these boards and elsewhere? Have I - at the age of nearly 60 - been trapped by these new modes of communication to live for each day so as only to carry on these electronic conversations, instead of concentrating on more creative things??

Or am I an old fogey in thinking this?
des



^^^
He had left no crumbs. In fact, he had no crumbs to leave.
^^^
The paradise garden is a magical place. We can only dream when there, but we cannot dream of it.
^^^
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Neal Asher
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 11:42 am:   

Thinking about your 'being ignored' comments, I rather suspect Internet communication is not much different from the verbal kind i.e. most people are not waiting to respond to what you've said, but are thinking about what they are going to say. Of course there is a difference, since that kind of talker doesn't even have to wait for you to finish 'speaking' here. Let's face it, there's a lot more opinions out there than responses.
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Dflewis
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 02:12 pm:   

A lot more opinions than responses, indeed, and I'm as guilty as anyone.
des
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ColettePhair
Posted on Tuesday, May 02, 2006 - 09:08 pm:   

Some people have been telling me lately I come across much different online than in person / on phone. I don't know how much that's going to matter for promotion though.

But you must get people who are interested in your writing by putting it up online, no? Does it just feel like putting much more into it than you get out of it? I thought that was the point of being a writer.
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Dflewis
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 12:32 am:   

Yes, I agree with that last bit, Colette. But my contention is that the Internet is so overcrowded, so fraught with misunderstanding, so susceptible to spontaneous mood (anger, joy, depression, intoxication, temporary stupidity, nepotism etc etc) that nobody reads anybody else's work or promotion on the internet. That's an exagerration! Temporary stupidity. But this morning, I believe it. For 'nobody' above , please read an *extremely* small number compared to the hordes posting work or promotion on the internet. It's just self-deception to believe otherwise. Of course, like pop stars or footballers, some 'famous' writers do get a lot of attention on the internet and elsewhere. But there are millions and millions of *active* creative writers compared to a handful of what I would call 'famous writers'.

Coupled with above, if your own promotion on the Net *is* noticed, it's often counter-productive, inasmuch as the Internet does not give good promotive techniques, I sense. It's good for information and discussion and sometimes creating new friendships (which can so easily then be lost because of the the nature of the Internet!)), but for work promotion (however professionally done) I *feel* it is is endemically counter-productive - and many people are becoming more and more averse to buying things on the Net with credit cards or whatever means of money electronic exchange because of fraud.
And all this ignores what I said yesterday about how it's affecting badly the behaviour of future generations, grooming people where temporary stupidity becomes permanent!
des
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Neal Asher
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 05:14 am:   

Sounds like a case of future shock to me.

You definitely need to keep a presence on the Internet now simply because so many people use it as a source of reference. Someone reads a great story by Des Lewis in a mag, where does that one then go to find out more? Google, like as not. Whether your presence is passive or active is a personal choice. Anyway, how much self-promotion is too much self-promotion. That's a bit 'How long is a piece of string?'
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Dflewis
Posted on Wednesday, May 03, 2006 - 06:18 am:   

Neal, I agree. But, with me (and I don't know how typical this is of others), I'm all or nothing. If I'm on the internet, then I'm on it in a big way, as I have been*. I cannot reduce it. The only other option is to leave completely, and abandon my 'derelict buildings'.
des

* My blog entry of 27 April 2006: Chasing The Noumenon. Arguably - using a degree of pretentious objectivity with which I do not deserve to be indulged - my lifetime's 'opus' should not be seen as directly constituted of the various DFL fictions themselves. It is, rather, I feel, those very fictions' repercussions, i.e. their tentacular body of brainstorming accoutrements - from url to url to url to url - that I have tangentially built up (with the unselfconscious collaborative help of others) since 1999 on the Net.

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