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CCB
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 07:33 pm:   

Hey, what happened to the thread of my favorite author? Kage Baker has disappeared.

Want. More. Kage.
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Rick Hauptmann
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 07:45 pm:   

Yeah, sup?
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Mastadge
Posted on Thursday, April 21, 2005 - 08:13 pm:   

I think she left after a little drama in her Pope thread. A shame, because there was lots of good stuff in her forum.
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CCB
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 04:57 am:   

Oh, damn. I hope she comes back.

Even if my own contributions are few and far between, I always like reading the stuff in her thread. I was even getting into the musicologist topic (which I know NOTHING about) and learning a thing or two.

Sigh. Politics and religion ruin everything.
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Tom Barclay
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 08:47 am:   

I must disagree, CCB. It's bad manners, inconsiderate behavior and greed for the spotlight that ruins everything.

Why do bulletin boards bring out the raging King Baby in some people? Simple civility seems beyond them.

Now we've lost the unique insights of a unique artist. 'Hawaiian Chieftain.' 'Gophers.'

My particular gratitude goes to the indignantly self-righteous. You are 'special.'
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CCB
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 09:55 am:   

True, Tom, bad manners/behavior are board killers everywhere you turn. But it does seem to me that certain topics (politics/religion/race) are just so passionately felt by people that, to them, mincing words or finding less offensive ways of phrasing things is almost a betrayal. A sign of wishy-washiness, if you will. So, when faced with the choice of civility versus what they feel is a clearer, more accurate statement of their beliefs, civility takes the fall.

The other thing that's working against us is the ambiguity of tone in written words. For instance, I had to read the last sentence of your post twice and re-place it in context, because I (at first) thought you were including me as one of the 'special' indignantly self-righteous sort. It's easy to misread tone/intent. And when that happens, the reader responds insultingly, and bang! we're off to the flame wars.

So, I don't know if I can blame it all on bad manners and greed for the spotlight. I really do think that when politics and religion are introduced into a normally non-political, non-theological arena, they often "ruin" things.
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des
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 10:16 am:   

I really do think that when politics and religion are introduced into a normally non-political, non-theological arena, they often "ruin" things.


I really agree with that.
des
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jeff ford
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 11:22 am:   

This cracks me up. Let's remember who introduced the topic. Kage introduced it and in her first post disparaged the new Pope. Other people stated their viewpoints, but somewhere along the line, they exceeded the level of disparagement of the Pope and the Catholic Church that Kage was capable of entertaining. Only in the last post of the entire thread did she say what she intended the post to be for, which in itself was rather vague. It's kind of disingenuous to light the fuse on the bomb and then be bitter about the fact that it blows up. People voicing their opinions about politics and religion is not self-righteous, what was self-righteous in that thread was having Tom Barclay, sycophant extraordinaire, admonishing everyone. Of course, only he was sensitive enough to realize what Kage was feeling. What a load of crap. The one thing that has come out of this , though, which is instructive, is how futile the whole message board thing is. I'd much rather have a heated conversation with Lucius Shepard, who is not going to hold back for decorum's sake, than try to engage Mr. Sensitive or that passive aggressive weasel, ThomasR, or worry about some one's frail sensibilities being ruffled. The problem is, it's too hard to sort out who's who. For that reason, I'm going to follow Kage's lead and drop my spot on the board too. Adios.
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MarcL
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 11:29 am:   

I'm on a couple of game design mailing lists, which are normally something I look forward to reading, since they revolve around discussions I don't have anywhere else. But every now and then, someone will send around a completely unrelated political article, and the thread quickly turns into something I can find a million other places on the net--or simply by stepping out my door. You can get yourself removed from the list permanently, or you can grit your teeth and weather it and wait for things to get back to normal, or you can beg people to please return to the topic.

There are plenty of religio-political threads on these forums where those topics rage. It's really easy to avoid them, or be selective about which ones you enter. Unfortunately, if you lance one of these boils on your own message board, you shouldn't be surprised if there's a pustulent eruption.

It can enough to turn one off message boards entirely, which seems to be what happened here.
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CCB
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 11:36 am:   

Sort of proves my point. It doesn't matter who started it, who won/lost the argument, who owns the thread, who's being hypocritical, or who's behaving badly. The final result of introducing a religious topic was a bad one: Kage is gone, and now you're leaving, Jeff. And I think it all really sucks. I'm going back to my original statement: politics and religion ruin everything.
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Lucius
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 01:13 pm:   

I feel I should drop out because it's getting to be in fashion. :-)

Self-righteous sychophant....yeah.

See ya in Seattle, Jeff.
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StephenB
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 01:34 pm:   

Wow, I'm suprised how things have gotten so blown out of proportion (but that's how our culture in general seems to thrive) and how seriously people are taking everything. Who cares, just say what you will, remember this is just a message board. Why be all overly dramatic about such silly things? I'll bet people will chill and see things more clearly in due time. So relax everyone! :-)
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StephenB
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 01:49 pm:   

This whole drama has been, well... very Catholic.;)
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Byron Bailey
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 02:10 pm:   

Personally, I think Lucius was wrong -- not in what he said -- but the way and the place he said it. But hey, sometimes passion is hard to control. My response if I had the ability was to just delete his ass from my thread but that's just me. For anyone to drop off the board whether Kage Baker or Lucius Shepard or Jeff Ford is sad and an overreaction and makes the board poorer for everyone. It's a big world and a big board. There should be enough room for all three of you.
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Lucius
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 02:40 pm:   

The woman called us names. I replied in kind, entirely in keerping with her post. You fucking people! You complain about overreaction, then you go on and on and on about shit in a totally namby pamby way which is much worse than the inciting event. I don't know Kage, but that's what Jeff's reacting to, to the passive aggressive crap on this board which is enough to make a goat gag.

I'm outa here.
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Byron Bailey
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 02:47 pm:   

Personally, I just think its better to build bridges rather than burn them and I know I'm probably burning one now. We have that much in common. (I wish we had our writing ability in common, too).
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Ellen Datlow
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 02:47 pm:   

Wow! I missed the whole thread and now everyone's splitting. This makes me very unhappy.

Jeff, please DON'T GO--your topic is one I'm always reading--and it's a great way to stay in touch.
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StephenB
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 03:13 pm:   

Lucius don't let it get to you man. You know you did nothing wrong.:-)
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John Schoffstall
Posted on Friday, April 22, 2005 - 10:18 pm:   

Jeff, come back, Jeff!
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Brandon DeWIlde
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 08:19 am:   

Shane....Shane, come back!
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Thomas R
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 05:36 pm:   

LuciusI don't know Kage, but that's what Jeff's reacting to, to the passive aggressive crap on this board which is enough to make a goat gag.

Thomas R: There might be something to be said for how you do things. You just are an intolerant hate filled person, there's no pretense. There's no veneer of civilization in you. No illusions, false or real, of empathy or pity to your ideological enemies. A person knows where to stand with you. Just like they would with Castro, Chavez, Trotsky, etc.

Anyone more complicated than that is bound to be more confusing. I used to wonder what this "passive aggressive" psychobabble crap you spout was about. Now, I get it. You are incapable of understanding anyone with anything more than a child's emotions. Lucius gets angry, Lucius swears and demonizes. Lucius doesn't like someone, Lucius's tries to pound them into the dust. Lucius believes in ghosts and the I Ching. Lucius waits for the specters of the American oil conspiracy to invade Venezuela. Lucius is incapable of any emotional self-discipline. He pouts like an overgrown baby that everyone else is at fault whenever he screws with others groups.

I'm glad Kage left this forum though. She deserves better than it. And she sure as hell deserves alot better than you.

(That maybe keeping flames alive, but unless I'm radically off it's not "passive aggressive." Although I will head off one thing by telling Stephen B this is not in his personal group.)
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 05:54 pm:   

" that passive aggressive weasel, ThomasR..."

Jeff Ford
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Thomas R
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 06:55 pm:   

It's a term you've used on me since 2003. I really don't recall ever having a problem with Jeff, but he likes you and shares your values. So apparently shares that opinion of me. C'est la vie.
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Byron Bailey
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 07:10 pm:   

I say applause for Thomas R for voicing much the way I feel.

Lucius Shepard, I admire the hell out of your writing even though I currently can't stand to read you stuff right now. I'm really hoping in time that the taste of vomit on my tongue when I see your name will cease and I can read your work with pleasure once again. I am very aware that the only one I'm hurting by not reading you is myself. But hey, you're great (writing wise at least) but your not worth vomit.

I'll just say this. Stop being such a fucking hatchet and try building something for a change. If that makes me a passive agressive weasel, then so be it. There's worse things around.

Well, you can start chopping. It's what you seem to do best. I won't respond. I'm out of here. I'm currently very soured against all message boards right now. See you in a few months if my nausea wears off. Or not.
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StephenB
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 07:40 pm:   

Byron you just wont let this go, will you? Anyway, your mellodrama is ammusming, but also pathetic. Lucius builds things everyday and as you have pointed out, he's really good at it. You on the other hand based on that story you posted on the nightmare thread I started... not so much. You'd be better served spending more time putting some real effort into actually writing a good story, and maybe then you'll get published. Or you can continue to be petty and bitter. Your choice.

Anyway, I'm going out for a couple drinks. Good night all.
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 07:51 pm:   

I happen to have saved the post I put on Kage Baker's board, since it was written offline. It follows this preamble. The post was inspired by Kage Baker's post which called me and Jim Minz and Lawrence and others "bitter old farts" and said if we couldn't rein it in, to get the hell out. I don't particularly quarrel with the description, but I thought it called for a response. The posts preceding hers were, in our view, relatively mild and essentially in agreement with Baker's slant on the Pope, but it was her topic and so I wrote the following:


I notice you enjoin one and all to be decorous in their condemnation of the Catholic Church, suggesting that by doing otherwise, one insults your friends who believe in God. Of course this isn't about belief in God, as Your Kageship surely knows. That's begging the issue. This is about an organization that has strayed so far from its charitable principles as to become a corporation solely devoted to the maintenance of power. That they're going about this in the wrong way, elevating a fundamnentalist to Pope....it seems an inefficient way of doing so. But then it's an era of fundamentalist excess, isn't it? Osama, Ratzinger, Bush...they're all facets of the same crummy jewel. But by all means, let's be decorous, let's merely note our displeasure. It's no doubt insignificant what anyone writes on these threads, but if any significance attaches, it is perhaps not unreasonable to assume that raising a ruckus will have a more pronounced effect than hosting a tupperware party where the papacy is decorously discussed. As far as I'm concerned, there is far too much superficial decorum in politics (and any discussion of the Church falls into that category). Any real dialogue demands you call a sham a sham and get down to it; otherwise you'll end up with something approximating another Bad Breath Committee on ArmChair Disarmanent that succeeds in producing only gas. The point is, in any circumstance, is to speak one's mind honestly. You have done so under the heading of Ohhh Dear, which doubtless succinctly expresses your level of dismay at Ratzinger's elevation. My feelings apparently run somewhat deeper....or, more precisely, I believe that my feelings demand a more forthright expression. Having the oppportunity to make a move forward, potentially to address the problem of women's role in the church, a rational policy toward birth control, toward AIDS, toward any number of problems, the Conclave has chosen as Pope an ex-Nazi indirectly responsible for the death of Romero in Salvador, a man who seeks to ban Turkey from the European Union on religious grounds, who sides with those who would rehabilitate molester priests, who generally displays a true bottom-liner's cast of mind, and this warrants, in my view, something more than a politically correct response, one that in no way seeks to challenge Ms. Baker's friends' belief in God, but rather seeks to challenge blind devotion to a man who appears, on the face of it, to serve a god other than Jehovah.

Out of respect, I'll stay off your topic. But if a timid old fart (I use the term advisedly since using a similar term apparently does not offend your sense of decorum) feels like kicking off her sensible shoes and having a chat...well, my topic is down near the bottom of the page, the slums as it were, and hell, we'll take anybody.

That was the sum of it.

Baker's response to this was "Ouch, dude."

I left her forum, returning only once and then to offer apology if I had caused offense.

Thereafter, the thread went on for quite some time. Posts by Jeff Ford and others expressed bewilderment -- She had brought the topic up, after all--didn't she want a discussion. The subject or priestly pedophilia came up. Then the thread degenerated in to long verbal battle between you and Stephen B. It was at that point that Kage chose to bag it. Perhaps I had something to do with it, but blame--if blame attaches--must be, at the very least, shared. And that includes your share.

Now if you or anyone else want to paint me as evil, if you want to stand around and say, He's bad, he's bad, He drove poor Kage away, if that gives you pleasure...Go for it. It's no skin off my ass one way or another.

Passive aggressive, Thomas.....Wow. You are the definition of passive aggressive. You enter a conversation and offer up your neo-con bilge and then say, Well, I'll just go away now. But you never do. You say it over and over again, you wheedle, you seek sympathy, and, you drone on and on with nonsenical arguments that have all the vitality of an air conditioner on the fritz. The only reason you let your venom out with me is because you know I don't buy your act, I know you for the vicious little toad you are. And, as the quote in a previous post will show, I'm not the only one.

So if you and any other cybernauts want to form a club and hate, feel free And I'll feel free to express myself any way I want, anytime I want, with impunity.

Go ahead now, start saying it now, he's bad, he's bad....

And oh yeah, Byron...

"Your not worth vomit..."

Work on that, will you?
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Minz
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 08:34 pm:   

I am greatly saddened by the departures of Kage and Jeff.
It's a damn shame it came to this.

I've written, and re-written this post a dozen times. But I've deleted the references to my role (minor at best). I've deleted my take on he said-she-said, because in the end, the first two statements say it all. This little round robin serves no real purpose, and I fear it could push even more folks off this board. That'd be a damn shame (even the ones who royally piss me off.)

The most important thing in all this is to remember one simple moral: Don't talk politics or religion unless you've got thick skin. (must suppress smartass jibe directed at thread-foes.) But if anyone wants to further discuss the new pope, and the catholic church, etc., c'mon down to Lucius' neighborhood where the fires are hot and toasty. But BRING YOUR THICK SKIN.
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Minz
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 08:38 pm:   

Oh, and personally, I prefer discussion of issues and facts, rather than personal attacks (yeah, okay, I've slipped on this one myself from time to time). I never blame someone for responding in kind--indeed there are times when you feel you must, but I have my preferences.
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Thomas R
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 09:30 pm:   

There was no act. If anything the act is being hateful to you now. In life I pretty much never hate anyone and they don't hate me. I don't expect you to believe or understand that. I think a life without hatred is simply foreign to you.

You need those who disagree with you to be hateful. You need to dehumanize them. I've seen this many times. If they aren't dehumanized, you bully them until they are. If they stay polite, you push them until they hate you. And eventually I cracked and went along with it.

However that's over. Do you think I wanted you to respect or sympathize with me? No, I didn't. You can not remotely sympathize with me. I knew that from the beginning. I've certainly known that for months. Do you think I want to wheedle you? Again no. I know you have so many layers of self-defense and sarcasm nothing can reach you. Added to this I know the view I've had of you has caused me more antipathy here than sympathy. That antipathy has spread elsewhere too at times. And I don't really care about that.

That being said you have proven to me what I thought and I was almost ready to gloat. To my dismay I realize I can't.

Because I was wrong to hate you. I was wrong to say those things. Not for your sake. You've obviously had so much pain your beyond me effecting you. No, I was wrong because of how it's effected me. I see an ugly side of myself in my reactions to you and I don't like it.

I don't think you or your compadres will now sympathize. I also don't care. Because what matters in my life is obviously not here and it's not them or you.
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 09:46 pm:   

sigh

Once again, goodbye and good riddance, you mindless sycophant. Don't let the door hit your crippled ass on the way out.
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 09:58 pm:   

For the record, the above was some troll using my name
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Thomas R
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 10:06 pm:   

Sycophant Lucius? Again you are a redundant. Still it begs the question, sycophant to whom?

I'm not a sycophant to any writer here, not that I can tell. Kage is gone, but I'm not really a sycophant to even her. I'm not a sycophant to Bush, who I voted against in 2004. I'm not a sycophant to Benedict XVI as I expressed strong reservations when Kage had a group here. I have little interest in being a science fiction writer these days. I have no reason to be sycophantic to anyone in the business.

My coming and going also has nothing to do with you or your friends. You think Lucius that because you mean little to me I must leave? You think my presence at forums is solely based on some hatred of you? That once it leaves I vanish?

Life isn't like that. I go when I choose, not when you choose.
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Thomas R
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 10:09 pm:   

I apologize then Lucius for thinking it was you.
I think some want to keep us at odds because it amuses them. It's childish and wastes time. I shouldn't have fallen for it though. That post seemed like a weak effort to me, but it's been a weird day here.
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The One and Only Lucius
Posted on Saturday, April 23, 2005 - 10:13 pm:   

No need to apologize to me, sycophant. I agree with the troll.
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Minz
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 04:52 am:   

Oh you BOYS...
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Bob Urell
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 05:54 am:   

Regardless of whether or not you agree with the troll, Lucius, if the fucker keeps posting with deceptive names, ie, the names of REAL posters hereabouts, I'm going to pay someone to track down their IP (which I don't doubt Jason will supply, cheerfully) and nuke their 1s and 0s off the 'net.
Test me, fucker. I dare you.
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Lucius
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 07:31 am:   

Oh yeah!! Go for it.
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Bob Urell
Posted on Sunday, April 24, 2005 - 10:37 am:   

I am a cocksucking faggot.
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Bob URL
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:32 am:   

I am a shit-eating, cocksucking faggot.
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Bob you're ill
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:34 am:   

I am a shit-eating, cocksucking ass-monkey faggot.
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Bob Urethra
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:35 am:   

I am a carpet-munching, shit-eating, cocksucking ass-monkey faggot.
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Bob your hell
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:36 am:   

I am a dick-smoking, carpet-munching, shit-eating, cocksucking ass-monkey faggot.
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Bob Urell
Posted on Monday, April 25, 2005 - 12:37 am:   

I am all of the above . . . and more!

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