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Michael Cisco
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 02:55 pm:   

Just listening to Pacifica's coverage of the current situation in Haiti. They have a man in Port-au-Prince covering the situation live, and he claims that reliable sources inform him that Venezuelan troops may be coming to protect Aristide, in accordance with certain treaty arrangements. If so, this would mean that Chavez is stepping in to protect an administration that the Bushies were willing to hang out to dry.
The reporter in question observed a number of US helicopters moving into Port-au-Prince, and so it may be that the US is now deploying either to block the Venezuelans, beat them to the punch, or move in afterwards to mop up keep up appearances and intimidate the Venezuelans.
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Lucius
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 03:01 pm:   

And guess what? No one on the TV is saying a thing about a US presence. Like Lorca said, "Always the same story. Four Romans dead, and five Cathaginians."

Thanks Michael.
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Lucius
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 03:06 pm:   

Hey, Michael...if anythng significant happens, keep me posted, okay?
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Michael Cisco
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 03:18 pm:   

Will do.
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GabrielM
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 07:08 pm:   

Although there is certainly a time-honoured tradition of using foreign entanglements to distract attention from domestic crises, after this week's events in Venezuela I have a feeling Chavez may have better uses for his army than using it to quell civil unrest in Haiti. Like, for example, quelling civil unrest in Caracas.

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Lucius
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 07:23 pm:   

That so -called civil unrest in Caracas may soon see the same helicopter traffic they're seeing in Port-au-Prince....
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Michael Cisco
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 08:59 pm:   

I don't know why exactly, but I believe the reports. Could be wishful thinking on my part, of course. I just hope that the possibility to which Lucius alluded, and that occurred to me too - namely that the Resident might see in this an opportunity to kill two birds, Aristide and Chavez, all at once - won't be realized!
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Lucius
Posted on Friday, February 27, 2004 - 10:01 pm:   

Oh, I believe the reports! I just think the Caracas stuff has been manipulated by a sleepless malice in the East. :-)
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Michael Cisco
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 12:48 pm:   

Nothing much to add today. The opposition claims to have placed Port-au-Prince under blockade, but this appears to be an exaggeration. I don't yet know what all the US helicopter activity was about, but so far it doesn't seem as though any serious support has materialized. No word on Venezuela. By now, I assume we'd have heard something if they were making any moves.
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 01:17 pm:   

Hmmm. An ominous silence. CNN is reporting that eighty million dollars will be worn by celebs at the Oscar ceremony, so they're on top of shit....
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Steven Francis Murphy
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 01:20 pm:   

Who gives a flying shit about Haiti? France and others want to go clean it up, let 'em and fuck 'em.

Why did we even give a shit in 1994?

Crap, it's Clinton's bitch we put in power anyway. Let him rot.

I suppose they probably won't mention that part of the legacy at the Little Rock Library.

S. F. Murphy
http://sfmurphy.journalspace.com
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 01:36 pm:   

You know, I could point out that Haiti and the DR have been problems for a much longer time than a decade, and that US action or inaction toward those countries, toward many countries in the region, will as is often the case be based mainly on domestic political realities and have little to do with foreign policy per se, and I could further point out that you're not going to piss anyone off over here by dissing Clinton, because as far as I;m concerned he and Bush are both the political equivalent of hyenas with human infants in their mouths, but there's no point in discussing anything with someone like you, someone who has the sensibilities of a goat, the political acumen of a fruit fly, and the IQ of cottage cheese. Go foul someone else's topic.
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Michael Cisco
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 03:26 pm:   

Actually, the Clinton administration was generally dissatisfied with Aristide, as the Bushies are now, mainly because they worry his reforms will create unrest, and the unrest will generate further refugee problems in Miami.
I care about Haiti, myself. The people down there, being people, and not garbage, cannot be "cleaned up" by the French or anyone else.
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 04:30 pm:   

"I care about Haiti, myself. The people down there, being people, and not garbage, cannot be "cleaned up" by the French or anyone else."

Which is, of course, not precisely the attitude of this administration, or--I think--of any other previous administration.

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Steven Francis Murphy
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 06:35 pm:   

Gentlemen,

If you care about Haiti, my suggestion is when we get pressured to send troops, AGAIN (and I know this is not the first or the last time we've sent troops to that fleabitten hellhole) you find Captain Jack, pick up your weapon and a K-pot, and follow him.

Now I'll just wait around for Bosnia and Kosovo to go to shit. Should be five to ten years from now, I figure.

And I'll take being referred to as a "goat" as a complement. Thanks, Lucius. :-) You lose some weight and the Army just might take you.
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 07:23 pm:   

You know, having to listen to you, man, I'm getting an idea of what it would be like if beer farts were people.
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GabrielM
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 08:00 pm:   

With respect to the "ominous silence", Lucius, were you referring to coverage re Haiti in general or to the Venezuelan angle in particular? The Pacifica story frankly smacked of disinformation fed to the news media by Artistide supporters in Haiti hoping it could swat the US to intervene. I could be wrong, but it would surprise me greatly to see more about it.
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, February 28, 2004 - 08:26 pm:   

I'm talking about the complete lack of stuff on the cable news channels about Haiti. Now maybe there's nothing to report, but I bet if I could get Canadian news here, I'd be getting a lot more information. You may be right about the disinformation, but I always suspect that we're not getting the straight story, because I used to be part of the news process and I know intimately how stories get squashed, hidden, or kneaded into a pleasing shape.
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Jeremy Lassen
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:11 am:   

Just read on the NBC local news ticker at the bottom of the screen that Artistide fled Haiti last night. Looks like another CIA backed coup topples a reformist leader. Venezuela can't be too far behind.

-JL
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Jeremy Lassen
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:31 am:   

S. F. Murphy = Troll.

Please don't feed the troll. Don't respond to his little outbursts. He just wants attention. If you don't give it to him, he will go away.
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Lucius
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:43 am:   

I thought SF stood for Sorry Fucker. Okay.

Yep, Aristide is rumored to be elsewhere. But others are denying this report. One way or another, you're right, Venezuela's next.
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Bruce
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 09:52 am:   

The Canadian news doesn't have much to add to the CNN feeds. If you're interested though, check out www.cbc.ca.
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Michael Cisco
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 01:42 pm:   

Lucius - what do you think specifically will happen in Ven, and do you think there's anything Chavez can do for himself?
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MC
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 01:43 pm:   

And thanks for the link, Bruce.
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Lucius
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 01:58 pm:   

Michael, I think it depends on what route Chavez takes, whether he sees the writing on the wall or hangs tough. The USA would, I'm certain, like to unseat him without intervention and if they can manage this, whether causing him to flee, killing him, whatever, that would be, in their view, fucking garden party delightful. However, Venezuela is a huge oil prize and I feel certain that we are prepared to send troops in the eventuallity that once Chavez is out of office, the new puppet fails to mollify the populace. What can Chavez do for himself? I don't know the extent of his resources or the depth of his commitment, so that's tough to answer. I have to assume that we are committed to unseating him, however long it takes. So, ultimately, the answer would be: nothing, apart from saving his own ass either by flight, exile, or compromising and making a deal with the devil.
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MC
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 03:52 pm:   

I've been hearing reports now that Aristide has been kidnapped and removed from Haiti by American troops, after a protracted and evidently unsuccessful attempt to persuade him to resign. This could all be baloney, but these reports would be more consistent with his previously stated intention to die in Haiti rather than step down. No one seems to know where he is at the moment, but his constitutional successor, who is supposed to take his place, has not yet made any announcement or taken any action.
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Lucius
Posted on Sunday, February 29, 2004 - 03:58 pm:   

Well, bullshit or not, it isn't inconceivable. Interesting.
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paulw
Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 03:50 am:   

Now reports coming out of France, denied by the US, that in fact Aristide was "persuaded" shall we say to resign by American troops, who then removed him from the country. It's interesting that the US denial is only a quasi-denial: i.e., Aristide's resignation letter was "already signed" when the US troops arrived at the presidential residence, and the US, upon his request, merely "facilitated" his departure.

But on the other hand, were this true, Aristide would presumably be able to speak out truthfully at some point along the route of his exile, wherever that leads him . . .
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Lucius
Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 06:09 am:   

Presumably. But maybe not. He may be bought off. Menaced in some way, His daughters are in NY. Who knows. Another multinational force. Anyway, now we can look forward to a truly democratic govt. in Haiti....

Uh-huh....
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Lucius
Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 05:33 pm:   

TELLING IT LIKE IT IS

(This courtesy of Sam Hamm)

CARACAS, Venezuela (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez called President Bush an "asshole" on Sunday for meddling, and vowed never to quit office like his Haitian counterpart as troops battled with opposition protesters demanding a recall referendum against him.

Chavez, who often says the U.S. is backing opposition efforts to topple his leftist government, accused Bush of heeding advice from "imperialist" aides to support a brief 2002 coup against him.

"He was an asshole to believe them," Chavez roared at a huge rally of supporters in Caracas.

The Venezuelan leader's comments came as fresh violence broke out on the streets of the capital, where National Guard troops clashed with opposition protesters pressing for a vote to end his five-year rule . . . .

And Paul, Aristide did stop and give voice to the fact that he'd be couped.

I just listened to Paula Zahn interviewing a news guy covering the state department. A Paula quote: "Well, if we have a signed letter from Aristide saying he was resigning, then how can he claim we forced him out?"

I can't get used to how stupid they think we are. I can't get used to how stupid many of us have become.
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Iron James
Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 10:07 pm:   

If there's no other reason to care about Haiti, and I think there are several good reasons to care, then the sunami of boat people trying to get from there to here is a good enough reason for me. We helped screw the place up, and I'm all for correcting wrongs we've committed whenever possible.

On the other hand, while those in Haiti are certainly people, and are certainly deserving of the same respect and treatment as any people anywhere, I can see S.F. Murphy's point. I doubt my corner of the world is going to be any better or any worse, regardless of what happens in Haiti, and I'm really tired of this country sending troops to, and weilding influence in, every two-bit country that's in trouble.

I have a son in the military, and I know a fairly large number of soldiers, and Bosnia and Haiti together are not worth putting him or any of them in danger.

And in the long run, I think most countries are much better off when left to work out their own problems the best way they can.

There are certainly times and situations when military force is necessary, but if it comes to that I don;t believe Haiti is worth the cost. I also don;t believe we will ever have much luck setting up a foriegn government, and the more we intervene to do so, the worse the situation will eventually get.

I'm hardly an isolationist, but I think the only reason to meddle in the affairs of a sovereign nation is high risk national interest, and Haiti simply doesn't qualify.

As for Chavez, I say leave him alone, as well. I'd love to see him out of office, but in the end, it isn't our place to kick him out. He'll be out soon enough either way.

I also believe the situation there will straighten itself out faster and to better end if we stay the hell out of there and leave Haiti to the Haitians.

Nor do I think S.F. Murphy qualifies as a troll. He's on these boards, and those at Asimov's, frequently, and what he posted wasn't meant to cause trouble or to provoke angry responses. He posted what he believes, and, I believe, thinks showing any overriding national interest in Haiti would be difficult to do. Showing any reason why we should devote resources of any sort to Haiti, other than the old "they're people, too" argument, is, I think equally difficult to do.

And the trouble with the "they're people, too" argument is that it's used selectively, pulled out when someone thinks we should stick our noses into a particular situation. But it's never used when that same person doesn;t think we should be involved.

I'm all for giving a helping hand when asked, but that helping hand should not involve putting troops in Haiti, or in putting anyone into power, or taking anyone out.
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Lucius
Posted on Monday, March 01, 2004 - 11:07 pm:   

"I'm all for giving a helping hand when asked, but that helping hand should not involve putting troops in Haiti, or in putting anyone into power, or taking anyone out."

Well, if that's what you're for, then you're against US foreign policy as it's been historically employed in the region.

"And in the long run, I think most countries are much better off when left to work out their own problems the best way they can."

Yeah, I think it would be nice if elves and faries existed, too. The only countries where that happens are impoverished countries where no one has a vested interest. You really think a place like Liberia is better off left to its own devices? Children impressed into armies, forced to execute their playmates, and etc? I;m not suggesting that we intervene there or in any other impoverished African nation; I just wish we'd lose the hypocrisy thing when we talk about acting in the national interest.

"And the trouble with the "they're people, too" argument is that it's used selectively, pulled out when someone thinks we should stick our noses into a particular situation. But it's never used when that same person doesn;t think we should be involved."

Exactly. Every administration does it in lieu of WMDs.

"I have a son in the military, and I know a fairly large number of soldiers, and Bosnia and Haiti together are not worth putting him or any of them in danger."

Yeah, well, I've been around fighting men of various nations on and off for the last thirty years, in peace and war, and truthfully, I;ve never been involved with any war that met this standard.

"On the other hand, while those in Haiti are certainly people, and are certainly deserving of the same respect and treatment as any people anywhere, I can see S.F. Murphy's point. I doubt my corner of the world is going to be any better or any worse, regardless of what happens in Haiti, and I'm really tired of this country sending troops to, and weilding influence in, every two-bit country that's in trouble."

You miss the point of the exercise. We fuck with countries in our region, because it is our region. We've been fucking with the countries of the Caribbean littoral since the end of the 19th century. Ever heard of the University of the Americas? Boca del Toro? You might want to check it out. We've educated every two-bit Hitler and presidential coke dealer down there during the last 50 year in the tactics of terror. Those people live on our hunting/training preserve.

"As for Chavez, I say leave him alone, as well. I'd love to see him out of office, but in the end, it isn't our place to kick him out. He'll be out soon enough either way."

Sure, it's our place to kick him out and you can bet your body parts we're doing that very thing at this moment.

"I also believe the situation there will straighten itself out faster and to better end if we stay the hell out of there and leave Haiti to the Haitians"

Little late for that, I'm afraid.

"Nor do I think S.F. Murphy qualifies as a troll. He's on these boards, and those at Asimov's, frequently, and what he posted wasn't meant to cause trouble or to provoke angry responses."

Sure it was. You don't call people garbage unless you're trying to agitate. This is a guy who's threatened to kick people's ass from the brave platform of his cyberlink in Kansas City. Troll or not, he's a cretin, and where he posts is no credential that I'm aware of. What he says here, is all I care about.

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Jeremy Lassen
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 10:33 am:   

Iron James,
If you really do believe what you write, hold your elected officials accountable. The US intervenes in Latin America (and throughout the world) for commercial reasons. Be it Oil, or sugar, or fruit... our "national interests" and "security" have always been defined by the corporations who stand to make a lot of money in distant lands… and they make that money with you and me footing the bill for their police force. It's NOT a Democrat vs. Republican thing, as SF Murphy tries so desperately to believe. It's a U.S. Foreign policy thing.

Until you start electing people at the federal level that actually believe and enforce the ideals that you espoused in your post (as opposed to voting strictly party line)... Until you get actively involved in CHANGING one or both of the political parties to reflect your beliefs… until that time, your son, and every one else’s will continue to be put into harms way to ensure that somebodies profits keep flowing...
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news junkie
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 11:51 am:   

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1115
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Lucius
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 12:04 pm:   

What can I say? Business as usual.

Thanks, newsjunkie
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paulw
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 01:28 pm:   

I have to say that even I, as cynical as they come, am surprised at how universally Aristide's claims of abduction, etc. are being brushed off and ignored by all US media. I can't understand it, especially given that to a small degree a lot of mainstream media seemed recently to be growing more critical of the administration's various claims. Maybe once Baby Doc saunters back in and reclaims the throne, a la Bonaparte, there will be more coverage . . .
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Jeremy Lassen
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 03:36 pm:   

Some minor criticisms of Bush and his specific policies is in now way the same thing as criticisms of a long standing (100+ years) US foeign policy that puts a lot of money into corporate coffers. The fact that the same actors who orchestrated the Iran-Contra deal are now once again running deciding and implementing foreign policy, and the fact that this gets no traction in the media what-so-ever, should make it pretty clear that when it comes to CIA-OPs in central America, Corporate Media refuses to touch it.

Remember the CIA/cocaine distribution story that broke in 1998?! It was front page news, in the San Jose Mercury – for a couple of days. Then they fired the reporter, and the entire management team. It was one of the last bits of actual investigative journalism into Latin American “black-ops” to come out of the corporate media, and it’s not likely to happen again.

If corporate media covers Hati, then they might be forced to cover what is happening in Venezuela, and there's OIL there, so they can't let THAT happen.

Keep the sheeple thinking that America stands for liberty, justice and democracy… Otherwise It’s hard to get them to sign over half of all their tax dollars to fund the worlds largest corporate security force.

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news junkie
Posted on Tuesday, March 02, 2004 - 05:27 pm:   

more info, if anyone cares...

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO402D.html
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news junkie
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 09:06 am:   

The Black Commentator: 'Godfather Colin Powell: The Gangster of Haiti'
http://www.blackcommentator.org/80/80_cover_haiti.html
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Lucius
Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 10:46 am:   

Good stuff, man. Paula Zahn and her ilk should be forced to live in Cap Haitien for a couple of months and, should they survive, be interesting to hear their reports.
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newsjunkie
Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 09:31 am:   

As Aristide left, the US marines moved in … and revealed the true power behind the Haitian ‘revolt’. David Pratt reports
http://www.sundayherald.com/40405
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Lucius
Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 09:56 am:   

Yup. There's a lot of material on this. In fact the only country where it's not being trumpeted is here in the US.
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newsjunkie
Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 08:05 am:   

US revealed to be secretly funding opponents of Chavez

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=500711
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Lucius
Posted on Saturday, March 13, 2004 - 08:18 am:   

What a shocker, huh? Heaven forfend Who would have thought?

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